In this powerful episode, Father Frank Pavone, National Director of Priests for Life, joins Jenny Beth to expose the spiritual forces at work behind America’s ongoing abortion debate. From the fall of Roe v. Wade to the fight for life at the state level, Father Pavone shares his insights on how abortion isn’t just a political issue—it’s a profound moral and spiritual battle. Discover how the pro-life movement is mobilizing in a post-Roe America, what’s at stake for our nation’s soul, and why Christians must rise up in defense of life now more than ever. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about faith, freedom, and the unborn.
In this powerful episode, Father Frank Pavone, National Director of Priests for Life, joins Jenny Beth to expose the spiritual forces at work behind America’s ongoing abortion debate. From the fall of Roe v. Wade to the fight for life at the state level, Father Pavone shares his insights on how abortion isn’t just a political issue—it’s a profound moral and spiritual battle. Discover how the pro-life movement is mobilizing in a post-Roe America, what’s at stake for our nation’s soul, and why Christians must rise up in defense of life now more than ever. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about faith, freedom, and the unborn.
X/Twitter: @frfrankpavone | @priestsforlife | @jennybethm
Website: https://www.prolifevote.com
Frank Pavone (00:00):
If people can see the pro-life movement as a movement of compassion and love, so many think of it as a movement of judgment and condemnation. But if we can show, and this even helps political candidates too, if you put yourself forward as pro-life unapologetically, but lead with compassion and people are going to respond positively to that,
Narrator (00:21):
Keeping Our republic is on the line, and it requires Patriots with great passion, dedication, and eternal vigilance to preserve our freedoms. Jenny Beth Martin is the co-founder of Tea Party Patriots. She's an author of filmmaker and one of time magazine's most influential people in the world. But the title she is most proud of is Mom To Her Boy, girl Twins. She has been at the forefront fighting to protect America's core principles for more than a decade. Welcome to the Jenny Beth Show.
Jenny Beth Martin (00:53):
Today we're joined by one of my very good friends, father Frank Pavone, who is the director of Priests for Life and the President of Pro-Life Vote. Frank, I am so excited to have you here with me today.
Frank Pavone (01:06):
I am excited to be with you again. Thanks for all the great work that you do over these, I shouldn't say years, decades. We've known each other.
Jenny Beth Martin (01:12):
Yes.
Frank Pavone (01:13):
And been on the front lines together. So thank you. It's an honor to be with you.
Jenny Beth Martin (01:16):
It's really good to be with you. And people are probably wondering, how did we know each other for so
Frank Pavone (01:22):
Long? Oh, that's a great story.
Jenny Beth Martin (01:24):
I was helping down in the year 2004 with the Bush reelection and was deployed down there with a team of people from Georgia in Orlando. And those people had not gone to any events with President Bush or his family, so I made sure they got to go to an event where Jeb Bush and Rudy Giuliani, I think could be
(01:44):
Speaking Rudy. Yes.
(01:45):
And I said, well, if you want to see 'em, you got to get there early. We got to get in line early, and when we got in line, you were with
Frank Pavone (01:52):
Us. I was standing right next to you. We stood there for hours.
Jenny Beth Martin (01:55):
We did
Frank Pavone (01:56):
Waiting for a long time. It was worth the wait. But that's how those events are as we well know.
Jenny Beth Martin (02:01):
And we just started talking and got to know each other. And then we saw each other a few more times and you stand out because you're a father and you're in
Frank Pavone (02:12):
Your Wearing the collar, wearing
Jenny Beth Martin (02:13):
Your collar. And I recognized you and I'm like, Hey, we were together.
Frank Pavone (02:17):
Exactly.
Jenny Beth Martin (02:17):
And then now we see each other quite often,
Frank Pavone (02:20):
Quite often. Interesting. We're working in very much the same circles with very much the same mission as we'll talk about. Yeah.
Jenny Beth Martin (02:25):
Yes. So how did you get involved with Priests for Life?
Frank Pavone (02:28):
Well, when I was a teenager, I went to the third annual March for Life in Washington. That was 1976. And that awakened me to the pro-life movement and to the abortion issue. And the way I describe it is as the years went on, an alarm in my mind that was activated that day kept getting louder and louder, the more I just considered and learned what abortion is and the impact it has, not only on those babies, but on the moms, the dads, the families, our whole society, the more alarmed became, the more concerned I became. And I came to the conviction that I needed to devote my life in ministry full-time to fighting abortion and working to protect those children. So that has now been my full-time work since 1993.
Jenny Beth Martin (03:13):
Wow. Since 93. And what did you do from the time you were a teenager before 1993?
Frank Pavone (03:17):
Well, at the same time that I was awakened to the pro-life movement, I began to feel an interest in ministry.
(03:25):
So I entered the seminary right after high school, did some work after the college seminary years, but then went back into seminary. And so during those years I was preparing for priestly ministry and likewise getting involved more in the pro-life efforts. And so I was ordained to the priesthood in 1988 that I did parish work in New York City for several years until I came to the point where I went to, at that time it was Cardinal John O'Connor of New York. And as some of our viewers might recall, he was a very outspoken advocate for the unborn children. To him, abortion was the primary issue. And as Archbishop of New York, I had a lot of influence. And so he was very open to my request to be able to devote my ministry full-time to saving the unborn. And so he gave me that permission and that's what happened.
Jenny Beth Martin (04:17):
Wow. That is really amazing. Now, my father is a minister, a Methodist minister, so not Catholic, but Methodist. And I think that's one of the reasons why you and I wound up getting along so well because I've been around ministers and pastors basically my whole life. And so it's not strange to you're just another fellow activist, that's the way that I have seen you. But the work that you do is so very important. Talk about some of the things that you have done from 1992 onward to make a difference for life.
Frank Pavone (04:53):
Well, one of the things is that people, we call ourselves priests for life, and people say to me, well, isn't every priest for life? And I say, well, yeah, but we just help them to say so. And people know this all across the country and all across the body of Christ that a pastor, it needs to speak up about these fundamental moral issues like abortion, no matter how unpopular it might be, no matter how much opposition it might bring to that pastor, they need to speak up and people want them to speak up. And this was what our ministry was addressing right from the beginning. How do we help them speak up? So overall, these years we've identified some of the key obstacles that keep clergy from speaking out loudly and clearly about abortion. And we've helped them to overcome those obstacles through clergy training sessions, broadcast publications, one-on-one consultation, so serving the church.
(05:45):
Then beyond that, our ministry has grown to, for example, we incorporate the world's largest ministry for healing after abortion. This is a very, very big mission field. So many are wounded by their abortion. They keep it quiet, they suffer in silence. So we oversee, and it's based on the word of God, a retreat for healing called Rachel's Vineyard. And then out of that comes another movement that we oversee silent no more because just like we read in the gospels, those healed by Jesus who want to go out and proclaim the story, those that have been healed from their abortions often want to do the same thing. Now some won't. And we help them to discern whether they should. But many want to tell the story about how abortion hurt them, about how they found healing in Jesus Christ and about how others can find that healing too. And hopefully their story will prevent others from making that same mistake. Silent, no more big part of our work. So we help these women, we serve these women, and not only the moms, the dads too, the grandparents. When you think about it, every abortion is affecting multiple circles of people.
Jenny Beth Martin (06:54):
What
Frank Pavone (06:55):
About the friend? If that mom realizes at a certain point, wait a minute, I had my baby killed. I mean, that's a deep personal grief and wound. Well, what about the friend who drove her to the abortion clinic or I helped her pay for it? They're going to come to that same realization someday, and sometimes it's sooner rather than later. They need healing too. They need forgiveness also. So it's a big, big ministry of healing. And then of course, a lot of what we've been doing, and this is the arena in which you and I intersected, was to bring the churches to a deeper level of political involvement. It is simply not the case that religion and politics don't mix. They do mix very, very deeply because religion talks to us about how does human activity bring us either closer to God or farther away?
(07:43):
How does it advance the kingdom of God or inhibit the kingdom of God? And some of our choices, a lot of our very consequential choices are in that voting booth. We help people understand, again, through publications, talks, conferences, broadcasts. We've help people understand this intersection between faith and politics, how the churches to get activated in the political arena. And frankly, the fact that so many pastors censor themselves and they think they're not allowed to say and do certain things, whereas in reality, they are quite allowed both by civil law and by the laws of the church. And we say to the, stop censoring yourself, you got to speak up. And we're very grateful, of course, in that arena where President Trump has poured fuel on the fire. He says to the clergy, right from very, from when he first started campaigning in 2015, he said, we need your voice. We want you to speak up. America needs your voice. So we have been very active in that whole arena as well.
Jenny Beth Martin (08:45):
So I'll come back to that in a minute. When you're talking about the healing, that is so very important. And as Christians, we have to forgive and we ask God for forgiveness and we have to forgive others. That's part of being a Christian. It's part of how we live out our faith. And in this arena, sometimes I think that people look at abortion and it's black or white to them one way or the other, and they're looking at the issue and they're not paying attention to the consequences. And what you're talking about are paying attention to those consequences and exhibiting Christ's love and Christian compassion for them to help them with their healing.
Frank Pavone (09:29):
That's exactly right. We who reject abortion do not reject those who have had abortions. It's
Jenny Beth Martin (09:35):
Very important distinction.
Frank Pavone (09:37):
And we don't stand before the world pointing fingers of condemnation. We stand before the world extending hands of hope, help and mercy. Think about the person going into the abortion clinic. They're not going there because of freedom of choice. They're going there because they feel they have no freedom and no choice. They're going there out of the power of despair. And when they walk back out of that clinic having had their abortion, that despair follows them for a lifetime. Most of them make a decision on that day that they will never talk about it with anyone else. They think they're protecting themselves from the pain of what they just did, but that only intensifies the pain and it isolates them. So we enable them to realize that, Hey, listen, you're not alone. Isolation increases the temptation to abort. The healing comes when they realize there are other people ready to help them, ready to bring them, like you said, to that point of first of all, receiving the Lord's forgiveness and secondly, then forgiving those in their lives that maybe didn't step up to the plate when they should have and could have prevented them from having that abortion
Jenny Beth Martin (10:43):
And forgiving themselves
Frank Pavone (10:45):
And forgiving themselves. Exactly.
Jenny Beth Martin (10:46):
And every one of us has sent and fallen short of the glory of God. And sometimes we don't like to admit that. We don't like to look in the mirror and know that we also have sinned,
(10:59):
But
(11:00):
We all do things that have fallen short of what we should be doing.
(11:05):
And
(11:06):
Maybe it isn't an abortion, but we have to remember, I think what you are doing is reminding people, we all have our own place where we have to seek forgiveness. And in this arena, when it comes to abortion, the consequences and the emotional baggage are just so, it's a heavy burden to bear.
Frank Pavone (11:29):
People don't realize the intense negative consequences that follow abortion. I mean, we have researchers. We just had a big meeting at our Priest for Life headquarters with some of the key researchers of the wounds that abortion causes, people we've worked with for decades. But we brought them together to update other pro-life leaders about this research. The research fills entire libraries. I mean, it's out there. In fact, if people want to go to a website, we have life after abortion.com, they will have access to an entire library of these studies, physiological problems, psychological problems, social, relational wounds. Abortion has such terrible consequences. And very often those who are suffering from it, they see these consequences in their lives. Maybe it's like, I can't trust people anymore, or I can't seem to make decisions. Or a couple, they come together in love with somebody and they say, why am I having trouble with sexual intimacy?
(12:30):
And you can trace all these things back to abortion. I mean, among other causes, abortion is a cause of all these kinds of symptoms. So we're just scratching the surface when we begin to tell people how devastating it is, people have no idea. And a lot of this research doesn't get published because of the political bias against saying anything negative about abortion. So we've got a lot of work to do here, but fortunately it is getting done. The word is getting out there. And if people can see the pro-life movement as a movement of compassion and love, so many think of it as a movement of judgment and condemnation. But if we can show, and this even helps political candidates too, if you put yourself forward as pro-life unapologetically, but lead with compassion and people are going to respond positively to that.
Jenny Beth Martin (13:23):
I think that that is very, very true. I read the book Unplanned. Is it Abby Johnson? Yes. Do I have her name right? Abby Johnson at the beginning of the book before I read the book, before the movie, and I've watched the movie as well, but at the beginning of it, she says, there are going to be people who read this book who are very uncomfortable with what I've done, either because they read that I have had an abortion and they don't like that, or I was with Planned Parenthood and I no longer am. And so they don't like that. So she's kind of caught in this no man's
(13:59):
Land.
(14:00):
And if you're able to basically, if you can get past knowing that, then you'll be able to read the book. But I thought that book is so powerful. And she talks about 40 days for life in Houston and how, I think it was 40 Days for Life, how they made a difference in her life and her ability to step back and recognize what she was looking at on the screen when she was seeing the ultrasound during an abortion. But it takes that kind of, you have to have that grace with people so that they have a place to come to if they decide that's not where they want to be anymore.
Frank Pavone (14:43):
Well, I'm glad you bring up Abby. She's a good friend. I've been part of her journey myself in my own ministry, and we helped her develop her outreach now to others who have been leaving the abortion industry. I also had the same experience with the very woman who was the Jane Rowe of Roe versus Wade Norman McCorvey. I ministered to her. She was a good friend. Imagine bearing the burden of not one or two, but tens of millions of abortions that she never, never really believed in that. And then we had also someone I knew was Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who was one of the architects of the abortion industry. He was the biggest abortionist in the western world. And Dr. Nathanson, having been instrumental in starting this whole empire of legal abortion in America, ended up becoming pro-life, as did Norma. And it was like I visited him just a week or so before he died in his New York apartment, and he was hardly able to talk.
(15:47):
He was lying in bed. But the first thing he asked me when I went into his room, he said, how goes the crusade? He was thinking about all the people, so many of our listeners included, who are working to end this scourge, this holocaust. And he wasn't thinking about himself. He was thinking about those who were working to undo the damage that he knew all too well, that he helped to cause. All these people, we have witnessed to them the mercy of God, the mercy of Christ, Dr. Nathan, I assured him so many times that the Lord does forgive you. He does forgive. You. Keep reaching out for that forgiveness. He eventually became a Christian when he was involved in the abortion injury. He was an agnostic.
Jenny Beth Martin (16:33):
He
Frank Pavone (16:33):
Embraced Christ
Jenny Beth Martin (16:35):
Towards
Frank Pavone (16:35):
The end of his life. It was so beautiful to see. And he proclaimed that too. He was not afraid. So yeah, it's a movement of mercy and compassion.
Jenny Beth Martin (16:44):
And I think that that's one of Frank that's going to be one of your legacies. It's not just that you stood for life, but that you showed mercy. And I think that is incredibly important. I remember back, maybe it was after that 2004 campaign, I was with a friend of mine, two friends of mine who are Republican activists in Georgia, and one of 'em was talking about being pro-life, and the other one was a man. And he said, we are going to have abortion in this country forever because every person in the country pretty much, or close to it, knows somebody else who's had an abortion. And because of that, it's affected so many people that they're never going, we have to find a way to let them go from what they've done to saying, no, we don't want this anymore. And that stuck with me. I mean, there was years, decades ago that I heard that, and it really just, it stuck with me. And it makes me remember and think, we do have to show that compassion. We have to show that grace. And we can't be approaching this just from a judgmental standpoint at all. That's right. Especially when society and the law has said it's legal.
Frank Pavone (18:06):
Right, exactly. That's a very important insight, the bridge to going from an abortion culture to one where we protect life. That bridge is compassion and love, because like you say, how are people going to make that transition if they think that making that transition means they have to look down on judge and condemn their sister, their own mother, their daughter. Okay. So yeah, that's a crucial insight. And the other part of it too is that this is one of the reasons why we see younger people and Americans generally becoming more and more pro-life. Part of the reason is precisely what you just said. If just about everybody knows someone who's had an abortion, what that also means is that they know the devastation that it has brought into their lives. And the more that time goes on, the more that devastation becomes clear. They've seen the tears, they've seen the grief in the faces. They've seen that this has not led to happiness and freedom. It has led to devastation and pain. So seeing more of that, we're learning from experience. This is a dead end. This doesn't work. And that hard lesson is going to be part of what leads us back into a culture of life
Jenny Beth Martin (19:19):
That is extremely important. Now you are helping people on the political side with pro-life vote. It's a 5 0 1 C four, right?
Frank Pavone (19:27):
Yes, that's right.
Jenny Beth Martin (19:27):
So you're educating on the issues.
Frank Pavone (19:29):
We are. We've been very active in the political cycles ever since 1994. And we have, just like in this last election cycle, for example, under our political activity, we were able to make in terms of voter contacts and you know how to count these numbers and everything. Good, 65 million voter contacts.
Jenny Beth Martin (19:51):
Wow. That's
Frank Pavone (19:51):
Throughout the 2024 cycle. Pastor contacts like 390,000 pastor, individual pastor. We've done a tremendous amount in this area. And now since the Roe versus Wade decision was reversed, the efforts have been much more on the state level. Also, the federal role is still there, very important. And on the state level, we've worked against these ballot initiatives that have been so extreme in various states that now they're trying to put into the constitution a right to abortion. Those aren't going to last, by the way, because the American people aren't there. They've never been there to say, oh, there's an unlimited right to abortion, no parental involvement, no taxpayers have to pay for it. No clinic regulations, no limits on late-term abortion. The American people have never embraced that. So we have, with the support of the people themselves, continue to educate and to try to stop these amendments from passing and where they have passed, we will get them out of those constitutions. The political work has been very, very, very gratifying. See, because it's so measurable, right? As you well know, right? It's measurable. You either win or lose an election, you win by a lot, or you lose by a lot and you see the difference. And then you see pro-life policies being enacted. And right now, I mean we living in this is like a waterfall of victories, including in the pro-life read, president Trump has done so much for the pro-life cause and will continue to do so. Yes, it's a big part of our work.
Jenny Beth Martin (21:30):
Now, you have been a victim, or maybe victim isn't the right word, you can tell me, but you have been a target of weaponization and censorship yourself, haven't you?
Frank Pavone (21:43):
There is censorship within the church communities across the body of Christ, but I'm in the Catholic church and there's weaponization of government in the Catholic church. What they did to me when we started to become very, very large and influential as an organization within the Catholic community, some bishops began to get nervous. And there's a saying within the church that these bishops, what they can't control, they kill. So we are independently financed just by donors. We are independently governed. We have our own board. And so the bishops don't control us. We as Catholics, we work in union with the teachings of the church. But they started to get nervous when we started to get big. So at first they tried to say to me, oh, you've done this pro-life work for a good number of years now we want you to go back into the work that most priests do serving in a parish and whatnot.
(22:40):
And I respectfully said, I can't because it was I who went to the church to request the permission to do this because of a call of conscience. I said, this is an emergency. This is a Holocaust. We have to the extent that each person is able stop what we're doing and fight this holocaust and change this. So I said, I can't go around the country as I've done and around the world saying, Hey everybody, this is an emergency. Stop what you're doing and let's solve this problem. And then all of a sudden go back to what I was doing before. Well, how am I supposed to explain that? Oh, it's not a problem anymore. So then they tried various other ways to literally stop or block or impede my work. And I felt as I still do now, and I see it by the fruits of our work, some of which we've been discussing, that I was responding to a call of God and the leaders, the human leaders within the church are supposed to be doing what St. Paul said to Timothy, stir into flame the gift of God that's been given to you. You don't quash it,
Jenny Beth Martin (23:49):
You
Frank Pavone (23:49):
Stir it into flame, you encourage it. So bottom line is that ultimately they said, we can't do anything with this guy. We got to throw him out of the priesthood. So literally in 2022, they said, father Frank Pavone can't be father anymore. You can't be a priest. That's why I'm not wearing the collar right now. And so it's like, why did they do this? And people across the body of Christ, many of the people you and I interact with all the time, they were just astonished by this. There's still this scratch in their heads. They're saying, this is the most visible Catholic priest in the pro-life movement, and they're throwing 'em out of the priesthood. It gives such a counter signal, such a, but it's weaponization of government. And it's a long story. It's a detailed story, but I'm struck by the parallels, what they did to President Trump, all the false investigations and the false, the fake impeachments and the lack of due process and all just the unfair treatment.
(24:41):
If you take all of that and you just translate it into an ecclesiastical setting, it's exactly what they did to me. False processes, I mean processes that like the impeachment process in and of itself, it's a legitimate process. But what they do is they make up false accusations and they use it in a weaponized way. It's exactly what they did in my case. And it's like I'm confident that it will be reversed because it can be reversed. But this was an action of the Pope. By the way. These bishops that were against me convinced Pope Francis to do this. But under a new Pope, eventually I'm confident that the right will prevail.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:23):
Well, whether it does here on earth or not, I'm confident that God knows what is right.
Frank Pavone (25:30):
Exactly. He knows our hearts, right? Yes. And he knows the call he's given us.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:33):
Yes. And he's given you a call. And you had the call before you were a priest.
Frank Pavone (25:40):
Exactly.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:40):
You had the call. He was calling on your heart when you were in high school.
Frank Pavone (25:45):
Exactly.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:45):
And you've served him faithfully the entire
Frank Pavone (25:48):
Time.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:49):
So I hope that a future Pope makes it right, but I know for certain that God will
Frank Pavone (25:55):
Thank you. Yes,
Jenny Beth Martin (25:56):
That means a lot. But it's so aggravating and frustrating to know that this is happening in every aspect. We see it in big tech. We see, we see it in the government. We see it in what happened to you. As I mentioned, my dad is a Methodist minister. We were United Methodist. I'm not a United Methodist anymore. The Methodist church has split. And in that split, they've done horrible things to some of the congregations and some of the ministers and everywhere. And I'm hopeful that the 2024 election is a reflection that we're turning back to what is common sense in our country. Common
Frank Pavone (26:38):
Sense. Yes.
Jenny Beth Martin (26:38):
I am not holding my breath yet, but I think that we had enough people speaking up going, wait a minute, something's not right here. There are some basic precepts that we can agree on.
Frank Pavone (26:48):
That's right.
Jenny Beth Martin (26:49):
And we need to kind of get back to those.
Frank Pavone (26:51):
It is a revolution of common sense. I love when President Trump says he governs with common sense. The voters chose common sense. And this election, it really was an election between common sense and insanity.
Jenny Beth Martin (27:00):
It
Frank Pavone (27:00):
Was an election between good and evil. And that's why by the way, I was confident that we were going to win. Because when voters start saying, this is a conflict between good and evil, that gets people that are in the pews into the voting booth,
(27:14):
They see it in those spiritual terms. But you've heard me say in the context of the work that I do, why is it that we can't say a man is a man or a woman is a woman in our society today? Maybe it's because for 50 years we've been saying a baby's not a baby. And when President Trump issued that executive order, and he said, defining, there are only the United States policy. There are two genders. He said, we are restoring biological truth to the federal government. Now think about that for a moment in the context of abortion. Doesn't that mean if we're restoring federal truth, I mean biological, restoring biological truth to federal policy, that mean we have to recognize the baby in the womb as a baby. That's just as much biological truth as a man, as a man or woman, as a woman. So I think we're on the right track. And I've been saying the same thing you just said. We've turned a big corner in America in a big way. The same people going into the voting booths are sitting in the pews in the churches. Things don't change in the church by the same mechanisms as they do in the government, but it's the same people
(28:13):
With the same desire to get rid of the wokeness. And when they see that wokeness in the church, they want I think even more to root it out of the church as they do to root it out of the government. So I'm hopeful. I'm optimistic, continuing to work together with people like you and all our friends and colleagues. I think we're in a good place.
Jenny Beth Martin (28:34):
I think so. Well, how can people get involved with your work if they want to know more to be involved?
Frank Pavone (28:40):
Yes. Well, certainly for the political stuff. Pro-life vote.com and we have all kinds of trainings online and in person and so
Jenny Beth Martin (28:48):
Forth. And do they need to be Catholic or not?
Frank Pavone (28:49):
No. No, not at all. Now, this is a universal ministry and also on social media. I am at Frank Pavone on all the major platforms, starting with Truth Social, of course, one of my favorites at Frank Pavone, and we do daily broadcasting and End Abortion Us is our main website for all these pro-life activities, end abortion us, and they'll be able to see our broadcast channel, our podcast, all these different things.
Jenny Beth Martin (29:18):
Well, thank you so much for being with me today, Frank.
Frank Pavone (29:20):
It's a joy. Thank you for all you do.
Narrator (29:23):
The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin, produced by Kevin Mohan and directed by Luke Livingston. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots action. For more information, visit tea party patriots.org.
Jenny Beth Martin (29:43):
If you like this episode, let me know by hitting the light button or leaving a comment or a five star review. And if you want to be the first to know, every time we drop a new episode, be sure to subscribe and turn on notifications for whichever platform you're listening on. If you do these simple things, it will help the podcast grow, and I'd really appreciate it. Thank you so much.