Jenny Beth sits down with Salleigh Grubbs (Cobb County GOP Chair) to talk about a recent rules change that Salleigh was able to get through the county elections board to help safeguard elections.
Jenny Beth sits down with Salleigh Grubbs (Cobb County GOP Chair) to talk about a recent rules change that Salleigh was able to get through the county elections board to help safeguard elections.
Twitter: @cobbgop @jennybethm
Salleigh Grubbs (00:00):
Securing our elections is a nonpartisan issue. It's something that we should do, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat or an independent, whatever the case may be. This is a nonpartisan issue,
Narrator (00:13):
Keeping our republics on the line, and it requires Patriots with great passion, dedication, and eternal vigilance to preserve our freedoms. Jenny Beth Martin is the co-founder of Tea Party Patriots. She's an author, a filmmaker, and one of time magazine's most influential people in the world. But the title she's most proud of is Mom to Her Boy, girl Twins. She has been at the forefront fighting to protect America's core principles for more than a decade. Welcome to the Jenny Beth Show.
Jenny Beth Martin (00:45):
Sally, thanks so much for joining me again on the Jenny Beth Show. You have done something that hasn't been done in quite a while in Georgia, and that is you just got a rules pass with the State election board, is that correct?
Salleigh Grubbs (00:57):
That's correct.
Jenny Beth Martin (00:59):
First, for people who are not from Georgia, explain what does the state election board in Georgia do, and then talk about your rule change and what happened with that.
Salleigh Grubbs (01:09):
So in the state of Georgia, we have the state election board, which under SB 2 0 2 that happened several years ago, has changed quite a bit. Previously you had the Secretary of State who was the chair of the state election board and that kind of thing. But in the Post 2020 world, a lot of that has changed under SB 2 0 2. And so the state election board previously had not really been too active. Their job is to promulgate rules and regulations and to help administer elections in the state. The actual administration of the elections is to happen on the local boards of elections, but the Secretary of State has traditionally been in charge of getting together the voter roll information and maintaining the voter database registry and all that kind of thing. The state election board has been there to hear cases where there have been violations.
(02:08):
Now the Secretary of State is no longer part of the ruling body of the State election Board. So under the administrative practice rules and regulations, they can promulgate rules. So the legislature will pass the laws and then the state election board itself can put through rules that will help in the administration of elections and how voter roll are handled and things like that. So under the Administrative Procedure Act, you can propose rules and regulations. And so it's just another way to get things done where you don't have to rely on the legislature to do that.
Jenny Beth Martin (02:49):
Okay. And then what did you want to have happen?
Salleigh Grubbs (02:53):
So since the consent agreement was done in 2020 with the drop boxes, Georgia previously did not have drop boxes for dropping off absentee ballots, advanced voting ballots and things like that. What we wanted to do was to secure our elections even more by securing the drop boxes. So we've kind of seen an ebb and flow of the Dropbox situation, and one of the things that was not done is there was no chain of custody on dropping off absentee ballots. So the rule proposal that I put forth was to kind of tighten up that whole situation with drop boxes and also provide that just like when you go into vote and you have to present your identification to vote to make it so that when people go drop off absentee ballots, they also have to provide verification of their ID and also their relationship to the voter so that you don't have random people or the mules so to say, that come in and just drop off multiple ballots without provenance and without chain of custody.
(04:03):
So it tightens up the rule over chain of custody, and it also requires that surveillance be on drop boxes. If the drop boxes are in areas that they're not monitored by an individual, that they have to be under video surveillance. And after 20 20, 1 of the things we saw as well was that a lot of the drop boxes, they had video because that was required under 2 0 2, then the video was not required. So there were some boards of election that did keep the video in place just to be extra sure that things were done appropriately. And then there were others that quit videoing altogether. But one of the things that happened was that was not considered evidence, and so they destroyed the videos and they did not keep the videos. And under my rule proposal, it would require the videos become part of the evidence chain in verifying who went to the Dropbox and who dropped off what. So it's a lot of more security.
Jenny Beth Martin (05:04):
And how long do they have to keep the videos?
Salleigh Grubbs (05:08):
It would be in the same accordance with the state rules and regulations. You have 24 months under federal law in 22 months. So they would have to keep all of the evidence the same way that they would the ballots.
Jenny Beth Martin (05:20):
That's amazing.
Salleigh Grubbs (05:22):
It is amazing.
Jenny Beth Martin (05:24):
And you were personally told in 2020 that you were watching the old ballots from 24 months earlier be destroyed?
Salleigh Grubbs (05:34):
Yeah, that was a whole ordeal. They did not In 2020, what we saw was the shredding of evidence, including the absentee ballot envelopes and all of that kind of thing that was just sucked up into a shredding truck and destroyed. So this was a very big personal victory for me to have them mandate that it would have to be retained.
Jenny Beth Martin (06:01):
I think that's really important and it should give people more confidence in the election, and it provides more transparency in the election as well, which I think is extremely important because as we have the transparency still having a secret ballot, but having transparency in the process, it can help restore faith in the outcome of it. Maybe people who are more liberal who didn't support Trump, didn't vote for Trump, maybe they don't understand the importance of this, but if their side winds up getting in a contested primary or their shenanigans on their side, it's going to protect both sides. It protects all sides of the election process no matter what. It isn't about Trump or not Trump, it's about what's right to do for the process.
Salleigh Grubbs (06:49):
Well, that's completely a hundred percent the truth. And I also mentioned that because when you go present at the state election board, this particular meeting, they had it set in one day and then they broke it up into a two day process because of everything that they had on the calendar. I mean, they're still hearing cases from 2020.
Jenny Beth Martin (07:09):
Yes,
Salleigh Grubbs (07:09):
Which is kind of unbelievable. I mean, this board is more proactive right now with the change in the chairman. And so I'm very pleased from that perspective. But there are so many things that were never properly investigated, and I think anybody could have seen some of the reports and said, oh my goodness, I can't believe that this is what's happening. So I do feel better about that. But they broke it up into the day two, which was the hearing of the rule changes, and Bridget Thorn, who's a wonderful, amazing person, she presented before me, and it was very frustrating because after her rule change and it did not proceed, and they give you the opportunity to either withdraw it or to let them rule on it. So she did not withdraw it, and they ruled on it and said, we're going to reject the rule. And I thought, oh my goodness, they're not going to let me proceed. But after I presented it, and I had probably a good 20 minutes to go through why I thought it was important, and it was kind of testy, but what I told them is this is a non-partisan issue. Securing our elections is a nonpartisan issue. It's something that we should do, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat or an independent, whatever the case may be,
Jenny Beth Martin (08:33):
Constitution party,
Salleigh Grubbs (08:34):
Constitution party.
Jenny Beth Martin (08:35):
Ricardo would appreciate us reminding people that there are people active in that party.
Salleigh Grubbs (08:40):
Absolutely. The Constitution Party has been key in getting things done. I mean, Garland has been working for years, years and years to get more fair elections. And so my rule proposal is really a nonpartisan thing. And one of the reasons that it came is that when you have more activist local boards of elections, they want to, legislation comes out and then they try and figure out a way to get around it. And we found that in my county and Cobb County, because some of the more activist members, we had never had a drop off location that was other than a board of election office, they decided to start accepting ballots at libraries because libraries are considered government buildings. And so I actually went and observed at a library last in 2022,
(09:32):
And they told me that I couldn't be there, I couldn't observe. And I said, well, this isn't a poll. This is a library. And they went ahead and called the deputy sheriffs over and we had a nice little chat and everything was fine, and I stayed and I did exactly what I intended to. But the problem was that they were just accepting ballots from whoever walked in. They didn't have to show identification. And so this is a real problem, but now they have to prove the chain of custody. And I feel like it was a real victory. I don't think people really realize that it was a big victory, but since 2020, we've had to take incremental wins and we have to celebrate those wins. And so mine was passed. Congratulations. Thank you. I felt like having a big party afterwards. Yay. And then Mike Keegan from Fulton County had a win. What was
Jenny Beth Martin (10:27):
His win?
Salleigh Grubbs (10:27):
His win was when it comes to certifying elections, the way that the statute is written, they call it a ministerial act. They say that you just certify it, whether it's accurate or not. And that's been a big problem here in Georgia because when you have conscientious people who are on our local boards of elections, they want to say, okay, let's see if the number of people who checked in equals the number of ballots that were cast. Seems pretty simple, right? It doesn't seem outrageous. But what we consistently see is that the number of people who check in, sometimes that's more than the ballots that were cast. And sometimes we end up with more ballots cast than people that checked in.
Jenny Beth Martin (11:15):
How is that even possible?
Salleigh Grubbs (11:18):
See, that's the thing. It is, how is it possible? But unless we treat elections like you would normal accounting procedures, and unless you have proper chain of custody procedures, you just don't know. And so a friend of mine who's on a local board of election wanted to see those records. Let's see a printout of who checked in and let's just compare the number to the number of ballots cast or the number of cards cast. So you've got the cards cast because we are using Dominion voting systems, but then you actually have the physical ballots. Let's just a three-way match and see if those numbers shake out. And she was denied. They wouldn't allow her to do it. And so Mike's rule is to actually define what certification is because it's one of those words you would think. I mean, common sense would tell you, let's certify, let's look at the records, let's look at the numbers and see if those numbers match. But there was no actual definition for the words. So Mike's rule puts forth an actual definition for what certification means. And one of the problems is there was a more liberal group that sent out a letter saying that if you don't certify, we're going to sue you.
(12:39):
And that was sent to a lot of people who said, look, I can't certify. I can't be sure that this was a honest election, so I can't, can't vote for that. And this group sent letters to people like that that said, we're going to sue you if you don't certify.
Jenny Beth Martin (12:57):
Well, you'd be breaking the law. You have to vote to certify.
Salleigh Grubbs (13:00):
Correct.
Jenny Beth Martin (13:01):
And if you have to vote to certify, then why do you need a vote?
Salleigh Grubbs (13:04):
That's exactly right.
Jenny Beth Martin (13:06):
You don't need a vote at that point. If the vote is just a rubber stamp, then just get someone to stamp it and keep going.
Salleigh Grubbs (13:11):
Exactly. But they want people to be accountable, but they don't. And that's a real problem because I take oaths very seriously, and these people on these boards of elections, they raise their right hand and they agree to abide by the terms of the constitution of the United States of America and of the state of Georgia. So when they are performing this ministerial act, it really means something to them. So Mike's rule change that's in progress now. So he and I both got ours through, I kind of felt like I broke the dam with that, so that was good.
Jenny Beth Martin (13:49):
How long had it been since someone like you, a citizen, had a rule change passed by the State Board of Elections in Georgia
Salleigh Grubbs (13:55):
Since before 2020 is what I was told.
Jenny Beth Martin (13:58):
Okay.
Salleigh Grubbs (13:59):
So in the last several years, there hasn't been someone who's proposed a meaningful change. And that's another rule change that was proposed is defining what meaningful observation is. So that's one that's on the horizon too. And so all of these things are very important because what people don't understand is that the legislature meets 40 days a year in the first quarter of the year, but the state board of elections meets all year round and we have a better chance of having meaningful rules changes done. And it was kind of funny. During the meeting, one of the board members said, well, I'm not so sure that the legislature wants us to do this. And I looked around and said, is there anyone from the legislature here? There was no one there. And I said, well, if they were that worried about it, I think they would have someone here. You're given this authority under this legislation and you need to act on it. You need to be bold. And so it was kind of chancy, but it worked out
Jenny Beth Martin (15:03):
Well. It's not bold, but what you were suggesting isn't bold and defining certification isn't bold or they need to just be honest and say, we don't really mean anything when we say certification. I mean it should be one way or the other.
Salleigh Grubbs (15:19):
It should be, but for some reason there seems to be a real fear that they're going to overstep their authority. But it's very clear in the code section, the state board of elections does have the authority and it says to promulgate rules and regulations. I don't know how to explain it any clearer to them, but they do have the power. They do have the authority. They are a board and we need to use them effectively.
Jenny Beth Martin (15:48):
Okay. By the way, regarding certification, I'm pretty certain, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that someone in Arizona wound up getting arrested for not certifying because she was concerned that it wasn't right. And so they went after her. So the threat for being sued, it's different than arrest or indictment, I don't know which it was. But the point is those are real threats that they need to clarify it. And it's creating problems not just in Georgia, but around the country. You're just an average citizen and you wrote this rule, how did you decide what to do? What was your process? So other people who are listening can feel empowered as a citizen.
Salleigh Grubbs (16:39):
That's a very important point, Jenny Beth, is that citizens do have to step forward to do this. For far too long, we have sat on the sidelines and let other people do it, and that is where we made the mistake. Just because we have elected representatives doesn't mean that they always know. I also said at the election board meeting is that if legislators are going to be making these rules, they all need to actually go be a poll watcher or they need to go be a poll worker and they need to understand the rules and regulations that they are setting these laws. They need to understand what that means. And so the first thing I did was to review the code section. If there's a problem, you need to look at the code section and the official code of Georgia annotated, understand what the law means, and then understand what needs to change fits into existing law with the rule changes. When you see the gaps, just understand you have to work the process to begin with, and you have to understand what all of these terms mean. And it is a fairly complicated system. I mean, I did an open records request one time wanting to know all of the different softwares and the different hardware that is used in an election system. And my local board of election couldn't even tell me.
Jenny Beth Martin (18:03):
And I think that it's not exactly what we're talking about. I think that that is something that is so important for people to understand because they get caught up on certain software vendors, hardware vendors. What they don't realize is that there are multiple software systems. And in 2022, there's supposedly was a routine server update that caused the voter roll system, the poll pad system to slow down statewide where they weren't even able to use it and they were writing or looking on the internet through my voter system with your driver's license rather than the actual pole pad system. There's a lot of software and a lot of computer parts involved that don't have anything to do with the names and the companies that people talk about a lot.
Salleigh Grubbs (18:58):
It's all process. And that's why I appreciate the, I have a manufacturing background, so process is part of my daily thought of, you take this step this and you look at writing procedure. And that's what these rule changes are all about, is that over time, as our legislature has made changes in the rules, they have to conform the rules and regulations to the legislation that was passed. And some of those processes, you've got people doing that, like I said, have never worked an election. So they don't fully comprehend exactly how that needs to go.
(19:39):
So people just need to read it and review it. And you need to work an election, go to the polls, observe the polls, be a poll watcher if possible, get a seasonal position. I mean, right now in Cobb County, we need poll workers in some of the precincts. And I kind of go back to, I did some research or tried to do some research early on into how the idea of precincts came about and how the idea of this being a process that your average American citizen should be involved in, it was never meant to turn over to the government. This was something that is truly by the people and for the people and the people need to be involved in it. And we don't need to be comfortable just abdicating that process to someone else. So I do encourage everyone to get involved and understand those processes and how the rules work. And it's also Jenny Beth, very important because sometimes people will see something and they'll call me and they'll say, oh my gosh, you'll never believe it. I saw them do dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's only because it's a process they don't understand. It can be perfectly normal, but it seems out of place. And so they'll ring the alarm bell and get upset about it. But it's something that's actually a normal part of the process.
Jenny Beth Martin (21:05):
And I think everything that you just said is extraordinarily important and you can complain. We can sit there and go, I'm not saying that I say this, but for some reason in the last several days have heard over and over, well, we don't completely trust the election system. We don't trust it. Okay, you can complain about that all you want or you can roll up your sleeves and do something about it. Go look in the mirror and understand that if you're not stepping up to volunteer, you're part of the problem that you're complaining about. You're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. And to be part of the solution, it requires work. It requires researching and understanding and being patient with the process. And whether it's learning how to pass legislation and be involved in helping get Congress or your legislature to pass legislation that you want to see passed and understand, you may not get everything, but you can get something. And maybe sometimes getting something isn't enough because it might break other things if you don't fix enough of it. It's understanding how to count the votes. I don't mean the ballots, but I mean from a whip count standpoint, the legislative votes, do you have the votes to pass the legislation that you want or not? In your case, understanding the election process and then going before a board and talking to them and working the process,
Salleigh Grubbs (22:32):
That is so important. And I talk to a lot of people, a lot of grassroots activists as you know, and it's kind of like I can, since 2020, everything changed. Our whole world changed in 2020.
Jenny Beth Martin (22:47):
Yes.
Salleigh Grubbs (22:48):
With COVID,
Jenny Beth Martin (22:48):
I just call the world broke.
Salleigh Grubbs (22:50):
Yes, the world broke. I mean, it's
Jenny Beth Martin (22:51):
Still broken.
Salleigh Grubbs (22:52):
It is still broken. And we are learning how to adapt and change and how to improve things and how to fix it. And one of the things that I tell people is it's like the five stages of grief. And I came into the party, the Republican party in 2020, elected in 2021. So I was kind of the first wave of the new people. And now there's another wave of the new people, and they're in the stage of anger. And this is not just reflective of our community, but across the country. And it's great that we have more people involved, but learning from the people behind you is so very important. I'm still angry too, but you have to turn that anger into action
Jenny Beth Martin (23:43):
That
Salleigh Grubbs (23:43):
Is meaningful. You can't just be angry at the world. You have to roll up your sleeves, educate yourself, and be willing to do the work. And so that's why I felt like this rule change was a very good way to go about it, because I don't have to wait on the legislature. You can look at it, understand the rules, and say, okay, the process is broken. What can we do to fix it? And it was kind of funny. I talked to somebody after the meeting and one of the guys said, man, you just did a great job handling them. And I'm like, you have to relate to people. And one of the things is we forget the humanity of what we're doing. We forget that these people, first of all, the people on the state election board, they're all volunteers. Every single one of 'em, I'm a volunteer. None of us got paid to do any of this. They don't get paid for what they do. We actually pay money to get the grief. It's kind of,
Jenny Beth Martin (24:38):
And the county election boards in Georgia, it's the same, right? They're volunteers or the money that they're getting is minimal.
Salleigh Grubbs (24:44):
So I mean, our election board people, unless you're the chair, you get $200 a month to be on the local election board. And if you're the chair, you get $300 a month,
Jenny Beth Martin (24:55):
2,400 or $3,600 a year probably doesn't even
Salleigh Grubbs (25:00):
Barely pay. Doesn't pay for your gas. Really?
Jenny Beth Martin (25:02):
Yeah.
Salleigh Grubbs (25:02):
I mean, if you really want to know what's going on and you drive around to all the poles, we have 146 poles in Cobb County alone. So if you want to go around and see what's going on, you're going to eat it up in gas. So at any rate, I do try to understand that these people, they're good people, they just might not be where we are yet sometimes.
Jenny Beth Martin (25:27):
And even what you just said about remembering the humanity, I think that's really important also, even for the paid employees and for the elected officials. We can rail and be angry and have righteous indignation and take it to the streets and protest with signs and picketing and legally protesting. I don't mean occupations and riots. You can do all of that. When you walk into the government building and you're trying to affect change or trying to research what's going on, you have to understand you're walking into a business and you wouldn't want someone walking into the business where you work screaming and yelling, and you have to treat them the way you want to be treated. And remember, even if they're employees and you're frustrated maybe with the outcome of their job, they're still people. And you have to treat them that way. And not just people, they're your neighbor.
Salleigh Grubbs (26:24):
And that's the big thing. And that's why I love the secure and win strategy and why I love what you're doing with Tea Party Patriots is because it brings back the sense of community. And we used to be a community where you have a new neighbor, you bake a cake and you go meet them, or you go by and you say, I noticed you haven't had time to cut your grass. Can I cut your grass for you? Those are all things that build into what we should be doing as communities. And now we live very isolated lives because when we go home, we're on the internet or everybody's doing what they, and especially in the economy that we're living in, everybody is doing the best that they can do to get by. And the humanity part of it, in my view, is very, very important.
(27:16):
We feel like we were robbed of something in 2020. We were robbed of our voice. And I was remarking to a friend on the way here this evening, and I said, I used to go to Jim Miller Park and do live videos all the time. And saying in that building was our sacred vote. And it was just so amazing to me that our choice in our elected officials, because that's a huge responsibility that was taken away from us, and it was treated with disregard. So when you do have that anger, you have to turn that into positive
Jenny Beth Martin (27:51):
Action.
Salleigh Grubbs (27:52):
You cannot just let it sit there and fester. And I'm thankful that we have an election board that we can present these rules to and we can help make it better. And that's something that can happen pretty quick.
Jenny Beth Martin (28:05):
Well, I'm really proud of the work that you did, and I hope that people listening to this are inspired to take action themself. And if they're in Georgia, understand that the drop boxes are going to be more secure in November than they were previously.
Salleigh Grubbs (28:18):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jenny Beth Martin (28:19):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Sally.
Salleigh Grubbs (28:21):
Thanks for having me.
Narrator (28:23):
The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin, produced by Kevin Mohan and directed by Luke Livingston. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots action. For more information, visit tea party patriots.org.
Jenny Beth Martin (28:43):
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