In this episode of The Jenny Beth Show, host Jenny Beth Martin is joined by Bob Barr, the newly elected President of the National Rifle Association (NRA), to discuss the organization's ongoing legal challenges and its unwavering commitment to defending the Second Amendment. Barr, a former U.S. Congressman and U.S. Attorney, shares insights into the NRA's fight against government overreach and the importance of protecting constitutional rights in America. Barr discusses the NRA's current legal battles, particularly those involving the state of New York, where the organization has faced aggressive actions aimed at curbing its influence. He highlights a recent victory in the U.S. Supreme Court, where the court unanimously ruled in favor of the NRA, emphasizing that government entities cannot use regulatory power to silence organizations' free speech rights. The conversation delves into the broader implications of privacy and government surveillance, with Barr expressing concerns about the erosion of Fourth Amendment rights in the digital age. He underscores the need for vigilance in protecting personal freedoms against the backdrop of technological advancements that threaten individual privacy. The episode also touches on the topic of impeachment, with Barr reflecting on his role in the impeachment proceedings against President Bill Clinton and his views on the current state of impeachment as a political tool. He argues that the impeachment power has been misused in recent years, particularly in the cases against former President Donald Trump, and stresses the importance of adhering to the constitutional principles underpinning this process. Leadership emerges as a key theme, with Barr praising former President Ronald Reagan's strong stance against the Soviet Union and his ability to convey a clear sense of purpose and strength. Barr argues that effective leadership requires consistency and a commitment to core values, qualities that he believes are essential in addressing America's current challenges.
In this episode of The Jenny Beth Show, host Jenny Beth Martin is joined by Bob Barr, the newly elected President of the National Rifle Association (NRA), to discuss the organization's ongoing legal challenges and its unwavering commitment to defending the Second Amendment. Barr, a former U.S. Congressman and U.S. Attorney, shares insights into the NRA's fight against government overreach and the importance of protecting constitutional rights in America.
Barr discusses the NRA's current legal battles, particularly those involving the state of New York, where the organization has faced aggressive actions aimed at curbing its influence. He highlights a recent victory in the U.S. Supreme Court, where the court unanimously ruled in favor of the NRA, emphasizing that government entities cannot use regulatory power to silence organizations' free speech rights.
The conversation delves into the broader implications of privacy and government surveillance, with Barr expressing concerns about the erosion of Fourth Amendment rights in the digital age. He underscores the need for vigilance in protecting personal freedoms against the backdrop of technological advancements that threaten individual privacy.
The episode also touches on the topic of impeachment, with Barr reflecting on his role in the impeachment proceedings against President Bill Clinton and his views on the current state of impeachment as a political tool. He argues that the impeachment power has been misused in recent years, particularly in the cases against former President Donald Trump, and stresses the importance of adhering to the constitutional principles underpinning this process.
Leadership emerges as a key theme, with Barr praising former President Ronald Reagan's strong stance against the Soviet Union and his ability to convey a clear sense of purpose and strength. Barr argues that effective leadership requires consistency and a commitment to core values, qualities that he believes are essential in addressing America's current challenges.
Twitter/X: @bobbarr | @jennybethm
Websites: www.nra.org, www.libertyguard.org, www.bobbarr.org
Bob Barr (00:00):
Having leaders, particularly in Washington who understand that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. We still have people in Washington in positions of great power who either don't understand that or don't accept it.
Narrator (00:19):
Keeping our republic is on the line and it requires Patriots with great passion, dedication, and eternal vigilance to preserve our freedoms. Jenny Beth Martin is the co-founder of Tea Party Patriots. She's an author, a filmmaker, and one of time magazine's most influential people in the world. But the title she's most proud of is Mom To Her Boy, girl Twins. She has been at the forefront fighting to protect America's core principles for more than a decade. Welcome to the Jenny Beth Show.
Jenny Beth Martin (00:51):
Today we're joined by the honorable Bob Barr, a prominent figure in American politics and law. Bob was appointed by President Reagan as the US attorney for the Northern District of Georgia from 1986 to 1990. He represented Georgia's seventh congressional district in the United States House of Representatives for four terms from 1995 to 2003. Fun fact, I volunteered on his campaign back in 1994 and learned how to go door to door from his campaign staff. Bob now serves as a newly elected president of the National Rifle Association, but that's not all. He's the author of three books. He has taught constitutional law, has served as the CIA in the 1970s and was a Libertarian party's nominee for president in 2008. Those are just some of the highlights of his career. Now let's get right into this fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really, really excited about this. You and I go way back to your first run for Congress back in 1994, right? That was it. I worked during that summer. Worked is the wrong word, I volunteered, but it was work going door to door for your campaign that whole summer long and we've known each other for many, many years. So I'm really excited to be able to be with you and have you here on my podcast today.
Bob Barr (02:17):
Thank you.
Jenny Beth Martin (02:19):
And now you are the president of the NRA. How did that come to be and what do you think of the new position that you hold?
Bob Barr (02:26):
Well, first of all, it's great to see you again as always, and I know you're extremely busy, so taking a few minutes to talk with an old friend is really appreciate it. I've been a member, as you probably recall with the National Rifle Association going back to the late nineties. I've been very much involved in it both during the time that I was in the Congress and ever since then I was asked to step in the position of first Vice president a little over a year ago. It wasn't something that I had planned, but these things happen sometimes and as any organization that I'm involved with and that I believe in and support, when I'm asked to do something, I do it. So I stepped into the role as first vice president. I served in that role for a year and then in May of this year, I was asked by the board and voted on by the board of directors to serve as president, which brings me to my current position as president following in the footsteps of Charlton Heston. As you recall, former president of the National Rifle Association,
Jenny Beth Martin (03:36):
The NRA has had some challenges with legal actions taken against it over the last several years. How is that going and what are you doing to help resolve those?
Bob Barr (03:48):
We have had challenges. The NRA faces challenges all the time from left, left-wing government officials and anti-gun groups and so forth, as you know full well. But New York in particular over the last few years has been particularly aggressive both at the state level and at the local level in going after the National Rifle Association. The primary reason Jenny Beth that they're able to do this is because the NRA when it was incorporated way back when in the 1870s, it was incorporated in New York. New York back then of course was a very different state than it is now. Now it's very anti second Amendment and the former insurance commissioner, they call it the Director of financial Services, decided a few years ago in cohorts with then Governor Cuomo to go to banks and other financial institutions regulated by the state of New York and said, if you do business with the NRA, we're going to hold that against you.
Bob Barr (05:03):
So we sued the state director of financial services and went all the way up to the US Supreme Court and early this year we were victorious a nine oh decision, believe it or not, written by Justice Soda Maor that the state, state government, a government cannot use its regulatory power to try and silence an organization's exercise of its free speech. Interesting sidelight on that case is the A CLU joined us. The other challenge we've had in New York that's taken a lot of time and is still ongoing has been by Leticia James, the Attorney General in New York, who when she first ran for that position, I think six or so years ago, said, I'm going to go after the NRA, which is a terrorist organization and she has been true to her word trying to put us out of business in trial court in New York, been going on for four years. We've been victorious there too. Just recently, the trial judge denied Leticia James's request not only to put us out of business and seize our assets, but to appoint a monitor. As you can imagine, a monitor appointed by the state of New York answerable to the Attorney General would be death by a thousand cuts. So we still have a few loose ends to tie up, but in both cases we're in a very solid position
Jenny Beth Martin (06:40):
And you think that you will be able to tie them up and resolve all of this?
Bob Barr (06:45):
We're very confident because what the judge said in his ruling just a few days ago, he said, look, y'all have made some mistakes, but I've been very impressed with the measures that you all have taken over the last several years. Some going back even before we were sued by Leticia James to get your house in order to improve your accountability, to improve your compliance, your good governance, these are the things I'd like to see you do, but we're already doing them. So simply going back to the court and reaffirming that we are serious about good governance and accountability, that's a no-brainer for us. So I think we will emerge stronger even than before.
Jenny Beth Martin (07:33):
And you said the NRA was originally incorporated in the 1870s, so it's 150 years old or close to it. Is that correct?
Bob Barr (07:42):
Just a little bit over.
Jenny Beth Martin (07:44):
Wow. And as president, you have to deal with these legal issues, which are extremely important because the organization has to get over that in order to survive. What else do you want to do? What is your vision? Why did you decide to go ahead and become the president? What is it that drives you about the NRA to do all of this?
Bob Barr (08:06):
Well, what drives me about the NRA is the same thing I suspect that drives most, if not all, of what you do, Jenny Beth. And that is love for our constitution, love for the society that has flourished under our Constitution, the form of government that we have, the rights that are recognized in the Constitution not given to us, but guaranteed to us rights that are afforded us by our creator. And when government tries to limit those rights, particularly the Second Amendment, which is a right that is to keep and bear arms that is expressly guaranteed in the Constitution, my view has always been if the government can do that, then there's really nothing that they can't go after. So it's very important for me to hold the line on the Second Amendment and the nras ability not only to protect that, right, but to protect the First Amendment right to express those views. And I've been very fortunate to have been reelected to our board several times since I first got on the board and look forward to continuing in whatever capacity I can to protect those vital God-given rights against government intrusion.
Jenny Beth Martin (09:26):
When the government targets an organization like yours or the way that the IRS targeted Tea Party Patriots and other groups in the Tea Party movement, one of the things that you realize is your organization may have started out in the nras case to defend and stand up for the Second Amendment, and we started out on more economic issues, fiscal responsibility within the government. But once you start getting targeted by the government, you realize that the First Amendment is so, so important and we know that already we want the right to free speech and everyone in America or most everyone appreciates that, right? But the First Amendment goes further and it doesn't give, but guarantees the right to assembly and the right to petition the government and all of the things that are listed in the First Amendment becomes so important because if we can't gather together and we can't express ourselves, then we can't do the rest of what the organizations are set out to do. Whether it's conservative organizations like the NRA or T Pretty Patriots Action or the A CU or the naacp, we all have to be able to exercise that first Amendment to do the rest of what we set out to do.
Bob Barr (10:53):
You've really put your finger on probably the most important concept with regard to our Constitution, and that is the Bill of Rights. The Constitution of course sets up the form of our government, the Congress, the presidency, the court system, the limitations in terms of those three branches of government. But the heart and soul of the liberty that we enjoy in this country is found in the Bill of Rights. And one can look at one of those in particular, the Second Amendment. It's very, very important in and of itself. Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures, very important in and of itself, the First Amendment, but they're all interrelated and they all relate to the same principle and that is that individual rights are paramount and it's the job of our government not to limit those rights, but to protect those rights. And that's the magnificence really of the Bill of Rights and how important it is for people to understand such as the ACL U, which joined us in our case against the government in New York State, to put aside differences that they have with us or may have with other groups and defend the fundamental right to be able to assemble, to petition and to express one's view regardless of whether you agree on everything else.
Jenny Beth Martin (12:27):
Right. And the A CLU stood by us when we were being targeted as well, so we may not agree on a lot, but when it comes to that fundamental right, we do, and I am glad that they stood with the NRA. I'm sure that was not an easy decision for some of the people in the A CLU because they may not completely agree with everything the NRA does, but they understand the fundamental rights and the need to protect them because if the government of New York can come after the NRA, then another state government could do the exact same thing to one of the liberal organizations. It just would never end. And you would have the government trying to exert power that it really doesn't even have to try to destroy groups of citizens assembling together.
Bob Barr (13:20):
And that was really, you said it was probably a difficult decision for the A CLU and believe me, it was knowing a lot of what went on, but at the end of the day, the A CLU recognized that even though they are not necessarily the strongest proponent, shall we say, the Second Amendment, they did recognize that what the state of New York was doing to the National Rifle Association in using its regulatory powers to prevent us, the National Rifle Association and its members and donors from exercising their constitutionally guaranteed views and their expressive rights affected everybody. So it was a difficult decision internally for the ACL U, but at the end of the day, they stood for what was right and at the NRA certainly appreciate that
Jenny Beth Martin (14:16):
And I appreciate the fact that they did that as well. And I appreciate the fact that when I was testifying before Congress because of the targeting that I went through, I was sitting next to someone from the A CLU and they were defending our rights, our rights as well. They weren't there on our behalf and didn't join with us in a suit, but they still stood for what we stood for and the importance of being able to assemble and not be targeted by the government,
Bob Barr (14:47):
That's the way the system is supposed to operate.
Jenny Beth Martin (14:50):
It is that is the way it's supposed to operate and in America we should be able to have differences and disagreements with our fellow citizens and come together when we agree, be able to agree to disagree, and then come together when we agree. And it seems like too often these days that part is not happening, but I'm glad it happened in this instance.
Bob Barr (15:12):
It was a perfect example of how groups can disagree but come together when there is something the government is doing that affects them all.
Jenny Beth Martin (15:23):
Right. It's very good. Now, when you were talking about the Bill of Righteousness a minute ago, you talked about, we've talked about the first and the second and then you mentioned the Fourth Amendment. You've always been someone who's very protective of the Fourth Amendment as well, haven't you? Isn't that an amendment that you've spoken out about in the past specifically? It
Bob Barr (15:43):
Is because people think of properly the Fourth Amendment as protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures, for example. But even though the word privacy is not mentioned actually anywhere in the Constitution per se or in the Bill of Rights or in the Fourth Amendment, the Fourth Amendment really I think encapsulates the notion that privacy, the ability as AAN Rand said, to protect one's property, including one's intellectual and mindful property from being taken away is the essence of a civilized society. And the Fourth Amendment, I think more directly than any of the other of the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights or the ones that have been adopted since then stands for the notion that privacy is central to the notion of ordered liberty that we have in this country.
Jenny Beth Martin (16:43):
And we've seen over the years the government, we have kind of this surveillance state right now with technology and it's very alarming when you peel it back and when you understand technology and understand the Fourth Amendment, a lot of what we see the government doing right now, especially in relation to technology and watching what citizens are doing or collecting metadata of what citizens are doing, it becomes alarming.
Bob Barr (17:16):
It's very disturbing. And even as far back as the late nineties and early two thousands when I was in the Congress on the Judiciary Committee, we tried to educate people that there's a price to technology and people like to have their so-called smartphones and access to the internet and their iPads and whatnot and all of the technology by having doorbells with cameras and so forth. But a lot of times people don't recognize what they're giving up when they allow those intrusions into their privacy and what they're giving up is access to their lives and their ideas, whether it's through a private company, which really doesn't, there's not a big difference usually between a large private company and the government because of the interrelationship between these corporate entities, Microsoft for example, government can usually get access to all of that information and data that those private companies gather through all of those technological advances that people enjoy and share it with.
Bob Barr (18:40):
Who knows what license plate readers that the police like. I understand the reason for that, but you have license plate readers and even if your government says, oh, we're going to protect that information, we're not going to share it. If you look at the fine print and the contracts for example, between a police agency and the company that is providing the license plate reader technology, no, they don't have control over it, and you don't know what's going to be, who's going to wind up getting that data. It could be federal government, the state government, European Union government, a lot of this stuff is shared internationally, and I think it's important in the work that you do and that other organizations are involved in simply to try and educate people as to the privacy implications of this technology.
Jenny Beth Martin (19:36):
I completely agree with that and we've done that some over the years from our standpoint of our three core values are personal freedom, economic freedom, and a debt-free future. And I think that it ties very much to personal freedom. It's hard to have freedom if the government is watching every single thing you do and you have that threat, the threat of the government coming down on you at all times.
Bob Barr (20:01):
Again, I don't mean to beat on a dead horse here, but I remember, I think it's in not a Rand's Atlas Shrug, but the fountainhead toward the end of the book and the trial and the other protagonist is making his arguments to the jury declares that if you take away a man's privacy, you gain the ability to control him. Absolutely. And this was a book written back in probably the 1940s or early fifties, and it's even more true today with technology.
Jenny Beth Martin (20:37):
It really is. And I just think, man, if the Soviet Union had had the technology available to it that is available today, I can't even imagine how much worse it would've been for the people who lived in the Soviet Union during that time. And we see some of that right now with the Chinese Communist party and the digital IDs that they have, and it's alarming that that could happen here in America as well.
Bob Barr (21:11):
This stuff bleeds across international borders. I remember for example, back in the late nineties, I went over to London with a few other members of Congress to talk with some members of parliament over there about some privacy issues, and I remember driving back to the airport in London noticing cameras along the roadway and I asked, we had a military aid with us, I think I said, what are those for? Well, those are speed cameras. And this back in the late nineties, quite a while ago, quarter century ago, and I thought at the time, and I think I might've turned to one of my colleagues that was in the car and I said, thank goodness we don't have that here in the us. Well, of course we do. If you look at technology that is developed in other countries where you don't have at least the public awareness and the legal opportunity to challenge what government is doing, almost invariably this stuff sort of bleeds over into our country, whether it's from China or the EU or somewhere else. And here again, it's difficult to get members of Congress to really focus on this and try and provide some protections in the law.
Jenny Beth Martin (22:30):
Yeah, it really is. It's something that I think we just have to keep, keep working on and keep educating people on. I think that there were a lot of people during 2020 and 2021 as they saw the things that government was doing during lockdowns, they became more aware of how overpowering and overbearing a government can be. But we still have to just keep making sure people are aware and that they don't forget how we have to stand for and protect our liberty or we will lose it.
Bob Barr (23:09):
Ronald Reagan said that you say it in your organizations too. I've tried to, and we do have some good members of Congress that articulate that we do every now and then have a good Supreme Court decision that reinforces that, but not enough. It is a constant battle, whether it's protecting the Second Amendment, for example, against intrusions or whether it's protecting our privacy through limitations on improper technological usage by companies and by the governments, it's a constant battle. So I'm just delighted that these things, I know they're important to you all and I'm glad that you all are out there in the forefront of working on them.
Jenny Beth Martin (23:54):
Well, thank you for that. The president of the NRA right now, you are an attorney, that's what you have your degree in, and you've been a member of Congress. Tell people a little bit about your background that led you to where you are right now today.
Bob Barr (24:14):
It actually, Jenny Beth probably starts when I was a kid. You may recall that I grew up in foreign countries. My dad was a civil engineer and we would move from country to country every year and a half or two years, middle East, south America, other areas of the world. And I remember at an early age, even without knowing a lot about our constitution and our government and our laws, noticing that there was a lot of military around in these countries and you didn't really have the freedom that I knew inherently as an American citizen growing up with American parents and brothers and sisters and learning bits about American history and grade school and junior high and high school. I knew that that was uncomfortable, gave me an inherent sense that if you live in a country where there is an omnipresent military presence or police and where you don't have the freedom to do certain things, that's wrong.
Bob Barr (25:21):
So I grew up sensing that that was wrong, and then when I came back to the states to go to college and then law school and working and so forth, it just reinforced those things. I sensed inherently as a child that if you don't have freedom to say or do something, you're not free. You may live in a nice country and you may live in a country where it's safe, but safe doesn't necessarily mean free. So then going to law school, working for the government, and then coming down to Georgia many years ago to practice law, those sort of lessons that I grew up with have always stayed with me. And the NRA, which I became very active in around the time I ran for Congress back in the 1990s has stayed with me. And if anything, my commitment to those principles has grown even stronger over the years because like I see the problems with the rise of technology, the rise of government power, the often unhealthy relationship between big tech and government. It just means that we have to work even harder every single year. And it's frustrating because every decision that comes out of the Supreme Court is not a good one. Everything that Congress does or doesn't know is not necessarily good, but we have to stick with it and fight the good fight day in and day out.
Jenny Beth Martin (27:08):
That is so true. You mentioned something just now about safety and how safety is not always, it doesn't always provide freedom. I, over the years have thought that there is a constant struggle that seems to be a timeless struggle between those who have power and those who don't. And there's just this war, this tug of war going on constantly when or not those who don't, but those who want to be free. So you, you're pulling and you want to hold onto your liberty and the people with power and the government are pulling, trying to keep the power. And then I've modified that and I think it's a three-way struggle because then there's also this pull from people who want to be safe and they are willing to sacrifice freedom to be safe. And so you just have this constant three-way, tug of war, if you will, between those who want liberty, those who want safety, and those who are in the government and want to hold onto power. It's when you mention that, that's something that I thought of and it happens no matter what. It happens in our generation, it happened in our parents' generation. It seems like it's a timeless battle.
Bob Barr (28:28):
It is. I mean, it's the essence of government. Government exists to control. Our founders recognized that they had studied the sweep of history and governments that had risen and fallen, and they understood that. So they crafted into the former government that we then ratified with the Constitution checks on that they knew that we couldn't survive and have individual liberty in an anarchic system anarchy. So government was essential, but placing those controls in the governing foundational document was extremely important. They understood that, but I think really in recent years, more than in the past where you've just put your finger on is extremely important, and that is the notion of safety, which particularly since nine 11 has trumped a lot of other concerns and principles that people have. And I understand that people do want to be safe and feel safe from terrorists or criminals and so forth, but you can't have absolute safety and be free at the same time. And striking that balance is the essence I think of modern society, our modern governmental system. You have people that want to be safe and are willing to go a lot further than in earlier times. Perhaps they would have simply because they know that the same technology that they use, that people use to make everyday living good is available to terrorists and it makes it easier for terrorists or common criminals to harm people or institutions, but we cannot let ourselves be lulled into the notion that we have to be safe no matter what.
Bob Barr (30:37):
It's a false equation and it's a very important one that a lot of people don't recognize. I mean, I know that you do. I'm just delighted that you are out there trying to educate people about that.
Jenny Beth Martin (30:49):
Well, thank you. You worked before you were in Congress, you worked for government. What were the positions that you had and how did that help prepare you for what you did in Congress?
Bob Barr (31:00):
It's an interesting question because I worked at the CIA for a number of years after I got out of college, and then after I got my law degree up in Washington, dc worked for the agency as we say up there, so I know firsthand the tremendous power, technological power the government has and why it's so important then to rein it in and keep it within the limits its bounds because I know just how much power government has from a technology standpoint, and that just keeps growing. The other position I had with the government before going into the Congress was the US attorney here in the northern District of Georgia, pointed by my hero president Ronald Reagan, and the US attorney has very, very broad powers in our system of justice, very broad authority and flexibility, prosecutorial discretion, so it's incumbent. I realized to have men and women in that type of position who really understand that the power that comes with that position has to be temperate with a sense of ethics and morality and fairness and fair play, and US attorneys, by and large with very, very few exceptions understand that whether they're appointed by a Democrat or a Republican, the same can't always be said though about local prosecutors and state attorneys general as evidenced by the problems that the NRA is facing in New York where you have a state attorney general and you have local prosecutors and other government officials who are targeting those that they don't like, whether it's the NRA or former President Trump, simply because they don't like them and they abuse their powers.
Bob Barr (33:05):
You don't see that nearly to that degree among US attorneys. We see it to a larger extent with the US Department of Justice from time to time with the attorney general doing the partisan bidding of the president that nominated them, but local prosecutors and state prosecutors, state attorneys general are the real problem these days. I'm very concerned about what they do to organizations like yours and the NRA because the NRA, thankfully we had the wherewithal, the finances to take them on and beat them, but a lot of organizations the government goes after don't have the finances and the legal wherewithal to take on the government, which is why it's so important to have organizations out there that can assist.
Jenny Beth Martin (34:00):
I think that's exactly right. The NRA has been around for a long time, has a good fundraising foundation, but if you are a smaller organization or a newer organization or maybe you've been able to be very effective and haven't had to raise as much money or haven't raised as much money as say the NRA has raised, when all of that power from the government bears down on you, it costs money to defend against.
Bob Barr (34:27):
It is very difficult to fight Uncle Sam,
Jenny Beth Martin (34:31):
And it very easily can be a situation where an organization can just be put out of business and no longer even tries to fight because they just can't afford it. And I sometimes think, I think that that's a goal of a lot of the targeting that is going on. Oh,
Bob Barr (34:50):
It is. It entirely. It goes back to your point earlier about, and I think I did a program once called the Bob Barr's Laws of the Universe. One of Bob Barr's laws of the universe is that no matter how much power government has, they always want more. Yes, they do. They're always looking to increase it. The IRS is a perfect example.
Jenny Beth Martin (35:14):
When you were in Congress, you were part of the impeachment against President Bill Clinton, and since then we've seen the impeachment of President Trump and impeachment articles in the house, representatives in this administration. What do you think of what's happening with the impeachment power in Congress right now? Do you think it is an effective tool anymore or has it evolved into something that is a political tool?
Bob Barr (35:46):
I think it's been cheapened over the last several years, particularly by the way the Democrats use the power to impeach to go out to President Trump with really nonsensical cases. They didn't like a phone call that he had with somebody in Ukraine, so some whistleblower comes forward and mischaracterizes it and boom, you have an impeachment of President Trump, which he won eventually. But in the case of Bill Clinton back in 1998 and then the trial in the Senate in 1999, that impeachment was based on actual fact based violations of federal laws by Bill Clinton as a sitting president, and we had witnesses including rest in peace, Ken Starr, who came before the Congress at great cost to themselves and testified that if the impeachment power that's vested in the Constitution means anything, it must mean that if a president violates vital laws such as the laws on the sanctity of testifying truthfully in a court of law, a federal court of law, if that can't be the basis for an impeachment, then you might as well not even have it. Unfortunately, in recent years with the way Congress, the former congresses went after Trump, it really has cheapened the principle and the notion of impeachment. You shouldn't impeach somebody because you don't agree with their politics or their policies, but where they have violated the law and that can be shown in court proceedings and then in proceedings before the House Judiciary Committee. It's entirely appropriate, and that's what we did with Bill Clinton.
Jenny Beth Martin (37:53):
When you think of the next few years, and we still have an election and we don't know, we don't have a crystal ball, so we have no idea how that election is going to turn out, and in 2024, I don't think anyone can predict anything because it's a very unpredictable year. What do you think are the greatest challenges that America faces and how do you think we can solve those challenges?
Bob Barr (38:21):
I think a lot of it, Jane Beth comes back to education. People need to both educate themselves as to not only what's going on in governments at all levels, but the basic structure of our government. We need to do a better job of teaching that to our children. Private schools, by and large do a much better job of that than public schools, but the fact that most young people in our country are educated in public schools really places I think an important burden on public schools and parents through boards of education and PTAs and so forth need to be much more involved in making sure that their children are taught what our government is doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics. That has everything to do with understanding our government, the checks and the balances, the limitations, the history of it so that when they then become a voting age, they understand why this person, why this woman, why this guy should be elected or should not be elected.
Bob Barr (39:30):
That is the root cause of a lot of our problems. I think it's also important to continue the work that President Trump did with the federal judiciary. To me, the most important, most consequential steps that President took during his term in office was to place men and women on the federal judiciary, not just the Supreme Court, but especially the Supreme Court that really understand and are committed to the constitutional rule of law, and I hope that we can continue that. Then the third thing that I think is very important looking down the road, is to have leaders in Washington who are able to properly convey a sense of understanding and being in charge so that our adversaries in other countries, not just but most notably China, don't reach the conclusion that they can push us around, go after Taiwan, for example, and they don't have to worry about us responding forcefully right now.
Bob Barr (40:44):
That I think is a real problem where you have a president and there've been Republican presidents that have not done a good job of this. Mostly they do, but you have to have a person in the presidency that not only understands the real world out there, the power of politics among nations and so forth, and understands that our adversaries like criminals here in this country. They're constantly looking at how that local prosecutor works and abroad. Our adversaries are constantly looking at the office of the President and the person in the presidency to see how far they can push him or in the future her, and that's very important because we don't have that now, and it makes the world a much more dangerous place.
Jenny Beth Martin (41:34):
It really is a dangerous place right now. You mentioned that you were appointed to US attorney by President Reagan and the world when he first became president, felt like it was in a dangerous place much the way it does right now. What do you think the things were that he did that were so important to help ultimately in the Cold War?
Bob Barr (42:00):
I think one of the first things that President Reagan did is he recognizes that a vital part of what of the job of a president is to protect the nation. It's not the most important job, the most important job of the President is to protect our liberty at home, but it's vital that the president, as the constitutional commander in chief, understand the importance of a strong military President. Carter didn't understand that, or if he did, he didn't care. President Reagan did, so he made sure that the military received the proper funding right off the bat with his administration and the budgets that he sent to the Congress. That was extremely important. The other thing that President Reagan did, and he had the ability to convey these ideas, I don't think any president in the last certainly a hundred, 150 years maybe has done, he was able to convey a sense of purpose and strength to our adversaries calling the Soviet Union, having the strength and the backbone to call the Soviet Union the evil empire and not worry about what they thought about it to go to Berlin, the epitome of the Cold War with the Berlin Wall that at the time had been in place for I guess a quarter of a century or so, and tell Gorbachev, tear it down, Reagan understood the importance not only of putting your money where your mouth is with our military, but also conveying that sense of purpose and strength to our adversaries.
Bob Barr (43:42):
I think that was, we haven't had anybody like him since. Maybe we never will, I don't know, but he was the right man at the right time and had a great deal to do with the ultimate demise just a few years later of the Soviet Union itself,
Jenny Beth Martin (43:59):
Which I'm sure when he became president, seemed impossible.
Bob Barr (44:03):
Oh, everybody sort of presumed that the Soviet Union was always going to be there as the Soviet Union. They presumed that the Berlin Wall would always be there. No Bragan had more to do with that than any other single individual because of the way he was unafraid to stand up to the Soviet Union and call 'em what exactly they were an evil empire.
Jenny Beth Martin (44:28):
I think that his leadership was truly remarkable and he has such an amazing legacy, and I think that with what you were just saying, it makes me think leadership can happen and the right kind of leader can change, can change history, and for the better. I mean, I guess a leader can also change history for the worse, but the right kind of leader can change history for the better and move a nation to go and accomplish the impossible, and John F. Kennedy did that I think as well by saying, we're going to put man on the moon even though it seems impossible and difficult. We're putting all of our energy towards doing that. President Trump has done that. When he went down that escalator and started talking about the need to secure the border and build a wall. We don't have a secure border right now, but he shifted the thinking in America around the need to secure the border, and that's what real leadership is really just picking an issue, picking the impossible and saying, we're going to go get this done
Bob Barr (45:41):
And doing it consistently. It isn't just that President Reagan said one time, oh, the Soviet Union is bad. He was actually talking about it back in the 1960s when he talked about when he supported Barry Goldwater for president in 64, so President Reagan recognized that a true leader can't just simply make a statement and believe it, oh, it'll take hold. I don't have to worry about it. He hammered away at it consistently over a period of years. So that consistency of message, not just the strength of the message, I think it's extremely important, and I saw it over and over again when I was in the Congress. We'd have an issue that would come up and our leadership would say, well have a hearing on this, so we'd have a hearing on it, and then most members would say, okay, okay, we finished with that.
Bob Barr (46:40):
Let's move on to something else. Bureaucrats in government know that they know that if they can stand up there on the hill or sit there on the hill, take the slings and arrows verbally for a half a day or whatever, then they can go back to doing whatever it was they were doing because most members of Congress won't follow up on anything. It drives me crazy that you see so little follow up by the Congress and by presidents and bureaucrats love it because it just leaves them free to do what they want, which is their interests, not the interests of the people.
Jenny Beth Martin (47:16):
That's right, and I think that it also then applies to grassroots as well. Grassroots can complain about an issue or work on an issue to actually get real change. When I think about what you said about Reagan from the 1960s until the nineties when the Cold War really ended, it was decades and sometimes no matter how much we want something and we want it right, right, right now, just this very minute, we can't get it this minute, and if we don't stick to it over and over and over and over and over and over and over, maybe for the course of decades, we may never get it, but if we do stick to it, it's possible sometimes, maybe not always, but often to achieve your goal.
Bob Barr (48:08):
It is here again, our founders recognize that our war for independence was doomed to failure. If you ask most people at the time, you see it in many of the speeches and the writings and so forth. It was not a foregone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination that we would be successful in our war for independence against Great Britain, the greatest power on the face, military power on the face of the earth at the time, but we stuck with it. You read the stories and talked about the stories of Valley Forge and how close we came to having our military just completely disbanded. George Washington had to go to Congress and plead with them to provide enough money to buy food for his troops. When Japan first attacked us in December of 1941, it was not a foregone conclusion that we would win that war. There were a lot of people that said, just work out an agreement with Japan all day. One is some natural resources over in part of the world far away.
Bob Barr (49:24):
You look through the course of history as I know you as a student of history do, and one you have to recognize that no matter how bleak things are at the beginning of an endeavor, if it's important to win it, you have to stick with it. You have to overcome the naysayers, but you have to stick with it over whatever period of time it takes to win, and that's difficult, particularly in today's age, whereas you say everybody wants sort of immediate gratification, immediate success, accomplish something right away or we'll move on to something else. That's a problem we have to face as parents, as grandparents, in my case as business people, as teachers and so forth.
Jenny Beth Martin (50:10):
Who's your favorite founding father
Bob Barr (50:13):
To me, George Washington, and it's difficult. I mean, you have such a tremendous group of learned men. I mean James Madison in crafting the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, him along with Alexander Hamilton and John Jay to a lesser degree, the magnificence of the Federalist papers that they wrote. But there's something about George Washington, both as a military leader and as our first president, that to me personifies what you were talking about a few minutes ago in terms of leadership. He understood what it meant to be a leader, everything from just how you physically present yourself to what you say and how you say it and the consistency of what you're saying. And I dare say that our country would not have been able to withstand the internal squabbling with the articles of Confederation and the aftermath of that without George Washington there as our leader.
Jenny Beth Martin (51:20):
We're about to wrap up. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to cover and talk about?
Bob Barr (51:27):
If I could, without getting into partisan politics, the importance of having leaders, particularly in Washington who understand that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. We still have people in Washington in positions of great power who either don't understand that or don't accept it, and if you have people in Washington, I can think of some right off the bat who actually are on record as saying the right to keep and bear arms embody it in the Second Amendment does not guarantee a personal right to own a firearm to protect oneself, then you're always going to have the risk, if not the likelihood of anti firearms, gun control legislation. So it's very important that the questions be asked of people in Washington and who are running for office or reelection to make sure that they understand and are committed to the fact that our constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Second Amendment mean what they say and need to be protected.
Jenny Beth Martin (52:42):
And why is it important for the personal right to bear arms?
Bob Barr (52:46):
Because otherwise it has no meaning. If you say, well, it's only a collective right for the militia, and while we might have needed a militia way back then in the late 18th century, we certainly don't now. Nobody's going to overthrow the government or the government doesn't even need overthrowing, so we don't need a militia. The militia is just sort of this archaic notion that we don't need anymore. If you buy into that, then very quickly, all sorts of constraints on the Second Amendment, which apply to an individual, what type of firearm they want, how many firearms they might want, what type of ammunition they might want, where they can take that firearm. All of those fall by the wayside if it's a collective. Right, because it's very easy to tell, particularly young people, now, don't worry about the government, we don't need a militia. That's just this historical acronym.
Jenny Beth Martin (53:49):
Well, I appreciate the conversation today, and where can people go to follow you on social media to get more information about what you're doing?
Bob Barr (53:59):
Bob Barr doesn't hide. I mean, it's easy to find Bob Barr. I do a lot of work with a group called Liberty Guard, which is a small pro liberty organization that I started several years ago, so people can go to liberty guard.org or just bob barr.org, and I do a lot of writing the same as you do, and people can find that out or they can contact me through the NRA.
Jenny Beth Martin (54:24):
Very good. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Babar. I'm just really thrilled we had this conversation.
Narrator (54:29):
Pleasure. The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin, produced by Kevin Mohan and directed by Luke Livingston. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots action. For more information, visit tea party patriots.org.
Jenny Beth Martin (54:50):
If you like this episode, let me know by hitting the light button or leaving a comment or a five star review, and if you want to be the first to know every time we drop a new episode, be sure to subscribe and turn on notifications for whichever platform you're listening on. If you do these simple things, it will help the podcast grow and I'd really appreciate it. Thank you so much.